Side Cleats.-not gripping but line creeping up cam teeth

[happybassett]

Background: I previously had a a Mk2 epoxy with adjustable lowers and continuous control lines for all the other controls. The rig rake cleats were just behind the mast and in the 3 years I owned it everything worked as expected - the only thing that was not not consistent was the helm........but I do my best and I'm getting better!

Problem: Recently, just before Christmas I traded in the old boat for one fresh out of the mold.........totally delighted, I now have a Supernova that is as happy on port and it is on starboard and getting much better results at club racing, However, sailing this weekend in 12-14 mph winds discovered a problem I wasn't expecting - the rig rake cleats are now led out to the sidedeck and hence mounted on the angled cleat bar. As the racing progressed I could actually watch the control lines creep up the cleat cam teeth and hence the rig kept raking fully back when I didn't want it. Infact it was almost impossible to set the rig rake apart from fully tight (6100mm) with about 30lb tension which was inappropriate for the conditions ......it seemed to be caused by the continual buffeting of the rig in a relaxed state pulling the control lines and displacing them in the cleat.

Has anyone else experienced this? The engineer in me knows the solution will be to put a wedge under the cleat to reduce the oblique angle on the control line.......or for the angle of the cleat bar to be reduced at the manufacturing stage. I have other boats with similar angled control lines....admittedly they use Harken cleats and I've not had the problem and those cleats are years old.......the Nova ones are only 6 weeks old and used for 6 hours.


Your thoughts are welcome


Stuart

[CliffMilliner]

Gav had this once a few years ago. They had put the wrong fair leads (the small metal hoop the line runs through befor the cleat) on the cleats. They were only 1-2mm higher but the rope kept jumping out. Worth checking against another boat

Cliff

[Tony1246]

My brother, Mike, has had the same problem with his kicker cleats. He took out the fairlead (metal loop) and adjusted the angle, therefore the height, by bending them.
They have worked fine ever since.
Tony.

[happybassett]

Hi Cliff,

Well thanks for a prompt reply........and your explanation makes perfect sense.....2-3mm would make a big difference to the outcome. I'll be at the Winter Nationals so I can get some comparisons done. If it does prove wrong I guess I'll have to contact Hartley or do a spot of percussive maintenance in the workshop. Had a look on the Allen site but they don't publish the dimensions of the front wire guides.

[happybassett]

Ideally it should have been a Allen Allen A4665 fairlead fitted........Allen describe this as "small" rather than the Allen A4675 which is described as "Medium". If this turns out to be the case then all 8 fairleads will need swapping out. I must confess that my 2015 racing Wayfarer was built with more precision.........admittedly this was a full Harken fit out and has never let me down......only ever known Allen fittings fail.

[Pete1177]

Hi Stuart,

If you have medium fairleads instead of the small ones they are wrong, which is why you have a problem. I have a spare set in my toolbox so I'll dig out the spare tomorrow and measure the dimensions.

You would be better off with the Allen Pro Leads A0397 instead of the A4665 wire fairleads. I have these on my boat and have never had a problem with uncleating. If you have to fix all 8 cleats then this should be done under warranty and in my opinion you should only have to pay the difference between Pro Leads and wire ones (about £1.80 per cleat). They will fit your existing cams.

You are correct with the Harken comment. I made a kicker with Harken blocks on 1068 which was much smoother - I notice it's still on the boat at Hartley's for sale.

Pete

[happybassett]

Pete,

Thanks for your input and ability to measure these fittings..........I feel it's the wire loop at the front of the cleat that may be the issue. The boat is fitted with Allen Mega Pro-Lead Small
A.497 fairleads on the exit to the cleat.......it can normally be cleated from the windward side by pushing down the control line under tension but also the leeward side can be cleated off by just pulling the control line across the boat.....the placing of the cross-boat line aggregation rings (!!!!) is critical for this to happen......the line needs to pull down from the cleat so dragging the control-line into the cleat jaws.

My problem is the control line pulling out of the cleat on the windward side.........buffeting to the rig caused the control line to get progressively pulled up the teeth of the cleat and eventually let go.........massive rig rake, weather helm and difficulty tacking.........oh did I mention the ridicule from the Solo sailors.......cheeky bunch!!





Stuart

[Pete1177]

Stuart,

I looked for some wire under fairleads but I must have misplaced them - so no dimensions. If you have the small Allen Proleads A497 then that is what I have on my boat (SN1177) - I have no problem with uncleating and they've been very reliable. I think we need to look at your boat at the Winter's and try and fix the problem before the racing. I'll have a look at the cleating on my boat by the weekend and post a picture here, so you can get a 'heads up' before the Winters in case you need replacement parts.

It seems that some recent boats have had problems with inconsistencies in rigging out of the builder so maybe it's a simple fix.

Pete

[Pete1177]

Stuart,

I was going over my old batten diary posts and came across this ...

After changing the two top battens for stiffer non-tapered battens for R2 after lunch, the rig felt much better. Unfortunately my Cunningham control line snapped after a downwind capsize at considerable speed so I elected to retire early and put the new small sail on to test it out for the first time. I am not a fan of English Braids as the control line snapped at the splice. Although EB is easy to splice, I feel the outer braid doesn't stand up to serious wear, unlike the Marlow Excel Control braid. I have an occasional but recurring problem with the rig tension suddenly going off (which is very unnerving) as the cleat fails to hold the braid (EB again) - I think this is a problem with the braid not the cleat, so I think I am going to re-rope all my control lines with Marlow braid and use lock stitches on the splices.

I had forgotten about this - but I did rerig all my control lines with Marlow lines and haven't had a problem since. You might have the same problem.

Pete
SN1177

[happybassett]

Pete,

Once again I think you are spot on..........it is English braid on the new boat and yes I still have the problem. My old boat was restrung by myself using Rooster Easysplice and this never happened. Further investigation today before club racing showed up that the fairlead mounting screws were torqued down too hard causing the cleat jaws to be somewhat lazy........fettled now and working better, treated all blocks and cleats to some Maclube......which I absolutely know will give me a top 3 position at the Winter Nationals (assuming only 3 people turn up!!).

Given that I have now spent some considerable time on this issue and really looked at the mechanics/physics of the cleating action I am now convince it is the way the braid jacket and the core are working that causes movement of the braid relative to the core whilst it is cleated and not under a lot of pressure - this would be shown up by certain brands/types working better than others in this situation. Had lots of strange looks whilst doing these observations in the boat park........especially when Liz and I were passing various lengths of different rope through a spare Allen cleat/fairlead mounted temporarily on the boat with LIz pulling to simulate a buffeting load and me at eye level with the cleat and a sharpie to measure cleat creep!!

Going to talk to Mark at Hartley to discuss this as potentially this is a restring of a brand new boat to correct the issue and as we all know that's not a cheap task.

Stuart

[happybassett]

???? Which Marlow line did you use for your restring??

[Pete1177]

Hi Stuart
The problems were on my old boat 1068. My current boat uses English Braids and (so far) I haven't has a problem. However, I have re-roped the kicker with Marlow braid last year. I used Marlow Excel Control 4mm (the stuff with a Technora outer). Jimmy Green has some of this on clearance at the moment. It has a tighter outer weave making it a bit more difficult to splice, but well worth it I think.

Good point about the torquing down. HB need to invest in a torque screwdriver so that all screws are torqued to a known force (we have to do this on electrical consumer units now so that wiring is fixed to circuit breakers at the right tightness to prevent working loose and arcing, which causes fires). I'll speak to Gavin at the Winter's who will raise this with Hartley's.

Good luck.
Pete

[happybassett]

Taken the plunge as rig dive is pretty annoying.......just ordered Marlow Excel Control to see if this fixes the issue....£13.59 for 12m from Jimmy Green

Splicing will be a task for Saturday before racing if I can fit it in........I’m a dab hand!!

Take the point on screw torque but given that you are screwing into wood bonded into the deck then setting a torque will be problematic.....the issue is to not crush the fair lead to the extent that the central bearing core to the cam lobe is not crushed.....not an exact science but one that is easy to observe when right.


Stuart

[happybassett]

Update:

Sailed at the Winter Championships which proved to be far from windy and still the problem arose.....even with a restring of rig rake with Marlow Excel. Called Mark at Hartley and discussed the issue and he disclosed he had seen a similar issue with some contender boats for which he had commissioned some lower wire fairleads which appeared to cure the problem. I'm be picking some up at the Dinghy Show to try out.

[happybassett]

New fairleads fitted.....much lower than the originals.......5mm lower and low and behold the cleats not work as intended. Cleating action is now very good. Would like to post photos showing the height difference but not clever enough.

BIG shoutout to Mark at Hartley for understanding the problem and responding in a very positive way with a great solution.