Battens

[Chris1333]

Dear all

Thanks for the constructive comments on this forum thread.

The Committee wanted to make a few points to set out their position on the battens available from Matt.

1 - The Class Rules specifically exclude battens from being a major component and as such there is no restriction (other than the weasel clause**) on making amendments to them. In fact battens have been tweaked since the class began, with different people trimming and stiffening different parts of the batten. I am not aware of any amendments making a material difference. Personally I have only ever used the standard battens which come in the sail.

The last time the weasel clause was invoked was to disallow the use of adjustable shrouds. This followed serious discussion around matters such as cost, negative impact on the boat (due to complexity) and potential strains on the hull. Whilst the battens are expensive (I have no idea how the cost differs from those included by Hartley Boats), a similar impact is believed to be achievable much cheaper and the changes do not have the same negative complications of items such as adjustable shrouds.

2 - The development by Matt of the battens has been nothing to do with the Committee or the Association. There has been no official testing of the battens, this is purely a commercial product by a third party - much like some of the branded toe strap changes which some owners have made.

We hope this clarifies the Committee's views.

Thanks - and very happy to discuss any concerns at a future event.

Chris

Chairman - Supernova Class Association

** Rule 3.3 The Class Association Committee may decide to outlaw, at any time items that, while apparently permitted under the rules it deems detrimental to the class. This might be due to the cost to other owners to “keep up”, or to prevent unfair advantage. Please see Appendix 1 for rulings implemented under this clause.
(This clause is used carefully , as the Committee is keen to allow minor developments which might improve the Supernova, provided that costs are low enough to permit other owners to follow.)

[sam.spoons]

Fair enough It seems to me that some arrangement between Matt and Hartleys allowing them to supply these with a new sail as a alternative to the standard battens would benefit the class?

[Pete1177]

I agree Chas. I would like to order a new sail without battens as mostly people can use the battens from their old sail. This would (hopefully) offset the increased cost of the sail in the new material (£699) when existing sail material is all used up (end of 2017). Or at least give people an option to purchase tapered battens with a new sail.

Pete
SN1177

[Simon_Ludkin]

Is it mandatory to purchase battens from an appointed supplier?

Dick Batt supplied me with a set of tapered Aquabattens for my Solo sail about 18 months ago, the price was only £47 + VAT.

I would like to know the expected working life of these expensive "uber"-battens.

[sam.spoons]

Currently you are free to use any battens from any supplier but you may not alter the sail itself in any way whatsoever. Unless the committee invoke 'Rule 3.3' this will remain the case (super expensive carbon composite battens anybody?).

[simon1228]

I agree Chas. I would like to order a new sail without battens as mostly people can use the battens from their old sail. This would (hopefully) offset the increased cost of the sail in the new material (£699) when existing sail material is all used up (end of 2017). Or at least give people an option to purchase tapered battens with a new sail.

I have asked Hartleys this question, and have not had an answer as yet. I have at least 3 sets of original battens, sat there in worn out sails...not previously given this any real thought tbh!
I have another question about this area, which for the sake of clarity, I will post in a new thread.

So, to add to the above, yet raise another query...

Q: new style "go-faster" tapered battens in conjunction with with the latest new sail material - Have they been tested together; are they compatible?

[Pete1177]

Simon

The tapered battens will not make you sail faster. [Edit 31/7/2017 ... Actually I think I was wrong in this statement. I have tried the Dynaflex battens and they definitely improve upwind speed. See my Batten Diary in a separate thread. I don't think you want a leech too stiff in light to moderate winds as they will kill your power. The Contender battens may be too stiff in anything under 15mph, unless someone else can prove otherwise. The Dynaflex battens are softer but still much better than the standard non-tapered battens in the lighter stuff].They are designed to move the draft to 45% and the compression pressure is a lot higher than the standard battens as supplied with the Jeckells sail. This means the battens are stiffer and will resist the draft moving aft in stronger winds, as well as stiffening the leech so that the wind exit off the sail is better. If you find the sail is hard to control and 'read' in strong and gusty conditions, then you may find it beneficial to use tapered battens.

The Contender battens are expensive and TBH I haven't properly tested them except in lightish winds. When I do, I will post a review.

I am in discussion with another supplier who can supply battens for about £65 per set including shipping. I have sent them the specs and have ordered one set to see how they compare in performance. I should get them in a week or so. This will be interesting as they are only 10mm not 15mm like the Contender ones. If I get enough demand and if they work, I can order batches of 10 at a time for anyone interested in them.

I can't answer the question about the new sail compatibility as I don't have a new full size sail in the new material. It would be useful if someone could measure the batten lengths on the new sail and post them here. However, I do have a new fully battened small sail and it would be interesting to see how tapered battens work on this as this sail is more likely to be used in F5/6 conditions. However, this is another project.

Pete
SN1177

[sam.spoons]

The tapered battens will not make you sail faster. They are designed to move the draft to 45% and the compression pressure is a lot higher than the standard battens as supplied with the Jeckells sail. This means the battens are stiffer and will resist the draft moving aft in stronger winds, as well as stiffening the leech so that the wind exit off the sail is better. If you find the sail is hard to control and 'read' in strong and gusty conditions, then you may find it beneficial to use tapered battens.

I'm not sure that makes sense Pete...... Surely moving the draft of the sail forward to a more aerodynamic position and controlling/flattening the leech will give the sail a more efficient aerodynamic shape which, by definition, will be faster, also making the sail easier to read and control will reduce the potential for errors which, in itself, should make you sail faster?

Anyway, going off my efforts last Wednesday evening, Anything that makes the sail easier to read in the light stuff will definitely make me sail faster

To this end, I was fortunate to get a couple of old Banks sails with SN395 and these have very flexible rod battens, one set is tapered the others untapered. I also have a large bag of assorted battens recovered from, mostly, old windsurfing sails. By way of experiment I have replaced the untapped battens in one sail with full length tapered battens for the top two and short tapered leech battens in the bottom three. I have also reinforced the sail at the inner end of the short battens and moved the batten end stops to an appropriate position to support them. I assume this is not class legal but I have a VGC Jeckells sail for racing (and the mod is pretty much completely reversible anyway). It will be interesting to compare two identical sails, one with full battens and the other with short battens. However I probably won't get much chance to try it before September but I'll post my thoughts if I do.

edit to add :- I intend to try the Banks with the full length tapered battens next week if it is light, it is well worn and consequently much softer than the Jeckells which should make it easier to read (if inherently less efficient). Also I suspect the battens are much softer than the Jeckells battens which should also help in the light stuff. Does that sound plausible?

[simon1228]

Hi P,

VM thanks for that detailed and very prompt post

perhaps "go-faster" battens was an unfortunate turn of phrase?
But as an old fella, anything that makes sailing easier/more comfortable for me seems to generally have a positive effect on boat speed, afloat - or indeed ashore...

Have just ordered a new light-alloy launch trolley, for similar reasons, and as those who know the slipway at Porthpean SC will apreciate!


Pete - Other: my login issues seem to have been caused by Chrome browser on a small ipad style tablet; however Chrome on a "Chrome Book" laptop style thing seems to be OK?

[sam.spoons]

Tried the modified Banks sail for half an hour this arvo (I was on the Safety Boat for the evening race) and it seems to work fine., The shape is better than in the picture when powered up and it's definitely easier to read. I may race with it next week but only if it's light as I need the best result I can to up my series average (I'm away for five weeks then on Safety Boat duty again on the last Wednesday race).

https://www.dropbox.com/s/a146azepxq7tv9m/IMG_1337.JPG?dl=0

Looking at the shape in the pic again I'm seriously thinking of making up one tube/rod carbon battens, very flexible in the luff and very stiff in the leech......

[simon1228]

So, to add to the above, yet raise another query...

Q: new style "go-faster" tapered battens in conjunction with with the latest new sail material - Have they been tested together; are they compatible?

Matt - Birmingham Dinghy Services?

Anyone?

[Pete1177]

Simon

TBH I don't think anyone has possession of the new sail in the new cloth yet. I have put my order in for a new one but I've no idea from Hartley's when it will be available.

What I would like to know is the length of the batten pockets so that I can see if the Dynaflex tapered battens will fit. I have measured the batten lengths on a Banks' sail (in fact your Banks' sail Simon), and the batten pockets are longer than the Jeckell's, so the Dynaflex battens will stick out of the leech.

I do have the new material small sail which is fully battened. I also have tapered battens for this sail too, but as yet haven't sailed it - I am waiting for good F5/6 winds to get out to try. Once I have, I will post a review.

I am about to order 20 sets of the Dynaflex battens for delivery in about 3 weeks. I have orders for 12, so 8 sets are still available (£75 per set). These definitely improve the Jeckells sail and will revitalise an older sail (forcing an aerofoil shape) and much cheaper than a new sail. Worth the money in my opinion. The Dynaflex battens are about the same all-up weight of the standard untapered battens, whereas the Contender battens are 30% heavier (about 900g).

If anyone wants a tapered batten set for £75, please let me know. Private Message me using the PM link under my profile or email [email protected].

Pete
SN1177