Allen Bros Control Cleats on MK boats - issues?

[simon1228]

I have recently started to get problems with loaded lines jumping out of the control Cleats.
It has happened mostly to the kicker, but also occasionally the rig tension line.
Boat 1072 is "as built" in this respect. Original Cleats and control lines.

Not sure if this issue is connected with Cleats issue but...

The kicker control line end to end splice pulled out a few weeks back, and I have not yet managed to resplice, despite buying the correct needle tool.
The line seems to have gone very stiff and hard, probably due to v high loads on it? Makes it impossible to re-splice. A fear a trip to the chandlers looming?
I have put a few locking stitches into the splices in my other control lines? If they should pull out too this will get expensive.
You might want to check yours?

This boat has been regularly rinsed with FW after sailing.
Have tried rinsing again, lubing with silicon spray into the pivots. All appears to be operational?

Suspect the lines are going hard/thinner maybe? See above?

Anyone else experiencing this or similar issues?

Any advice for a fix v welcome.

Thanks.

[simon1228]

OK.
Took off the kicker Cleats, this am.
No defects. Cleaned and lubed on underside/pivots with silicon spray.
The Cleats now snap back readily when tested, under no-load.seem OK?

However, racing this pm same problem. Particularly problematic at leeward mark as I round up and sheet in, the kicker line often jumps out of the clear! At real pia!!!

Have tonight ordered a new length of control line in 5mm...maybe what is currently fitted is contaminated, slippery?
Let's see!

[Chris1333]

Hi Simon

I haven't heard this issue mentioned by anyone, certainly no issues on 1078 or 1100.

Keep us posted, and if you are still having difficulties I suggest you query this with Duncan at Hartley's. He will be able to contact the manufacturer and query on your behalf.

See you in Llandudno next year, hopefully with working cleats!

Chris

Supernova Class Association Chairman (1100 - Usain Boat)

[CliffMilliner]

I have seen this once before on one of Gavin's boats, it was a while ago tho. It turned out the fair lead bit that guides the rope into the cleat was about 1 mm higher on his cleats than anyone else (it was very difficult to spot). Hartley swapped them out and it was fine after. Appently it was a tool problem at Allen's so have a look at that.

Cliff
1079

[simon1228]

Thanks for the advice/info fellas.

I have got a new kicker line, as after 4 hrs no joy re-splicing the original. Rope seems to be too hard?

However, this would not explain the similar issue with rig tension Cleats. I will compare/contrast with the other Cleats on my boat. Unfortunately the only MK2 for miles around!

Cliff. By chance, do you have any more info on what to look for with the Allen's tooling re guide wires?
It has always seemed to me that the ropes were too high in the cleats, like they needed an extra wedge.

The issues experienced would appear to lead me down the route that you described re Gavin's boat. Any idea what number that was?

Llandudno - hope to be there, indeed expected to be...then just announced that they changed my rota at work, no details on new rota until mid Nov.....

[Pete1177]

Simon

I think this problem will be more to do with the lines than with the cleats. My boat 1068 is close in build manufacturing date to yours, and I have never had a problem. However, I have changed the kicker to Marlow braid, as in my opinion, it is a superior braid to English Braids (which Hartley's use). EB is easier to splice than Marlow, being of a looser weave, but the closer braid weave of Marlow makes it stronger. I have never had a Marlow splice fail yet. I always use a locking stitch using whipping thread. 4mm line is what I use for control lines.

But ... I have had a slight problem (not every race) with rig tension/forestay line coming out of the respective cleat ... and this is English Braid line still.

Perhaps your EB lines have 'hardened' up and gone shiny.

BTW - trying to splice old lines is v difficult. I have done it, but it can be nearly impossible. Must be something to do with the braid weave tightening up after extreme tension.

I would suspect the lines first, then if that fails, swap or renew the cleats. To save money, you could just swap the low load outhaul cleats for the high loaded kicker, and vice versa. Unfortunately that means you would have to resplice the lines again.

Pete1068

[simon1228]

Thanks for that Pete.

I tend to agree with your opinion re the ropes; contaminated + hard/shiny.

I have washed off all of the control lines, cleats etc. with strong soapy water at least 3 times over the last 2 weeks; this has made a big difference, especially to the kicker.
However both kicker (twice in 3 races) and rig tension lines (once in 3 races) have jumped out of the cleats during my most recent races.

Have given up on the old stuff. never managed to complete the two tucks, best effort was "one and a half" sides, that after 4 hours. I plan to bring it offshore to see if my bosun here on the rig can splice it - just out of curiosity!
My new Marolow line, in 5mm (up a size) has arrived, and is awaiting splicing.
Meanwhile have been managing with a knotted and taped "endless" line which almost works, but obviously not through the blocks.

It is rather disappointing that the cordage on such a new (and lightly used - I spend >50% of my time away from home/boat!) boat is no longer serviceable, becoming impossible to re-use once the splice pulled out. The replacement rope was £20 ish, I wouldn't want to be replacing all lines...

Prevention being better than cure, I recommend that all others with similar set ups check their control lines to ensure that locking stiches have been used. NONE of mine had been stitched.

Will keep posting, see if the new control line solves the problem(s).

[simon1228]

The new kicker rope has solved my problems...no more jumping out at all over 5 races.
I have stiched the splice!

No issues with the rig control lines either, so believe...

The kicker splice pulled out as not stiched. Couldn't resplice as too hard.
The lines were jumping out, or letting go in thecleats due to contamination by lube?

Hope this helps someone else, you really don't want to be replacing control linew for want of a lock stich in the splice, expensive!