rudder size

[andybownes]

I have now sailed in the fleet for some years, and the one thing that has annoyed me from the start is the size and shape of the rudder. It functions fine up to around 20mph but as soon as it becomes gusty as per last Sunday, gusts appeared and control become the issue or should i say lack of it. This situation then caused an accident with another boat, which horrified me. (fortunately no damage done.) I bought a Phantom some years ago which had a none regulation rudder, so a different shape to the standard, and as in our Supernova all was well and dandy until the wind reached the 20's. Control went out of the window very quickly. So invested in the proper Phantom kit, the right design, long enough that when on its ear a bit there was still enough rudder in the water to steer with, and wide enough deep enough in the run off at the tip. Yes I still had to rake and raise the board, but I had control. The change was incredible. We seem to be edging around the subject, with wings and 17deg forward slant, yes will try this, but please get a new good design and make stronger wind sailing more enjoyable and safer for everyone. Please Please Please.
ab

[GavinYoung68]

Hi Andy, sorry to hear of your incident, the subject of the rudder has been gently discussed a few times over the years.

The issue you experienced is a strange thing, I have experienced it myself on rare occasions, the strange thing is that it's not easily repeatable so it does not happen often. I have found that good technique and keeping the boat flat means that it becomes a very rare occurance, I have a theory that depending on where you have positioned the centreboard this may help the issue to occur due to turbulence from the tip of the centreboard. The raking forwards of the rudder blade is done to reduce weather helm, especially if you sail with the rig raked well back, it is not done to reduce the rudder cavitation, the rudder winglets that are being fitted are really aimed at smoothing the water flow and reducing the water that sprays out from the bottom of the stock I am not sure we know if it prevents the cavitation or not as it's a rare thing that is not easily repeated.

The best way forward if you feel strongly about it is to raise it for discussion at the class AGM.

Some of the reasons the rudder has not been more seriously discussed are:

1) A new rudder would mean that everyone would need to buy one to keep up which may not be popular.

2) An improved rudder would probably have a larger area and therefore more drag, it might work well in extreme conditions but maybe be slower in all other conditions, meaning nobody would want to change and be at a disadvantage.

3) A few years ago Hartley's invested in proper CNC machined centreboard and rudder blade moulds to ensure a proper cross chord foul profile. The original blades were not really properly profiled as you would expect a modern foil to look so thecurrent rudder blades are definitely much, much better. Having spent time and money to improve the current rudder mould whilst keeping the original general shape to maintain the strict one design so as not to disadvantage anyone with existing boats, rudders etc, the appetite from the build to change again will be low.

So if we want to change the rudder blade it really needs to be discussed at an AGM so that the class members are able to discuss and agree if this would be an approach we want to take. To date no one has brought this up as a serious discussion as its not a common issue and any changes would have an impact, including the possibility of reduced overal performance or for lake sailors where a longer rudder just means you collect more weed in the summer which would be a disadvantage.

If after considering the above you still feel this is something you want to raise then please email myself (Gavin Young Technical Advisor) or our class chairman as an item you would like raised at this years AGM.

Just for info I too sailed a Phantom for many years, I had beautiful cassette style milanes rudder, it worked really well, but you have to also consider the significant difference in cost!!!

[GavinYoung68]

Well I thought this might be an interesting discussion rather than a one off rant, which I think in unconstructive, shame not to get a response or acknowledgement after taking the time to respond to your post and address the concerns you had. I guess that answers the question why nothing has been done, not such a big issue.

[andybownes]

Well I thought this might be an interesting discussion rather than a one off rant, which I think in unconstructive, shame not to get a response or acknowledgement after taking the time to respond to your post and address the concerns you had. I guess that answers the question why nothing has been done, not such a big issue.

Gavin thanks for your input re your response. I was and am very serious about my comments, and pleased that you came back to me. I have though been vey busy and not checked this page for some time. The lack of control in strong gusty conditions is not for most of the fleet as easy to deal with as someone like yourself may seem to think. For my own part I have been a reasonable sailor in Solo Merlins and Phantoms, but this boat is the most difficult in these conditions that I have sailed. I suspect that most of the fleet in such conditions would sail better and faster as they would have more control and drag would be less overall. The rudder size if better thought out would be probably 3 to 4 inches longer and a touch wider and would not have the impact on speed in a detrimental way as you suggest.
I understand from a recent talk with Mark Hartley that they now supply the forward raking rudder as an option on new boats, thus signifying that there is room for a better rudder to cover a wider range of changes that the boat is going through. I took some dimensions recently on the rudder on the older mark One and found both to be very slightly wider than our current one, or are these rare. So would I like a bigger rudder, yes I woul, so please note these are not rantings but genuine thoughts on making the boat even better to sail.
Andy.